2012-02-12

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Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more)
Epson 3010, TW5900 and TW6000 sadly have a constant 100ms lag


AVForums Epson TW5900 review
AVForums Epson TW6000 (EH-TW6000W) 3 Chip LCD 3D 1080p Projector Review
Trusted Reviews reviewed the Epson EH-TW9000W
ProjectorCentral has a full review of the Epson Home Cinema 5010
ProjectorReviews has a full review of the Epson Home Cinema 5010
Amazon,com Customer Reviews Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 5010
Amazon,com Customer Reviews Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 3010
ProjectorReviews has a full review of the Epson Home Cinema 3010
ProjectorCentral has a full review of the Epson Home Cinema 3010
The Canadian Reviewer looked at a Frankenstein Epson Home Cinema 3010 with only one HDMI and a total different backside - Eh.

Replies to the
ProjectorCentral review from users who have the projector:


By Keith:  I'm a little surprised by your review. I got the EPSON 3010 on Monday and I've not seen any hint of 3D crosstalk in my viewing. I've been watching some 3D IMAX Blu-rays and they look amazing. I'd say the 3D is much better than many commercial cinemas that I've been to. I wonder if you had a bad projector, glasses or had something interfering with your glasses IR?

By richard: Many comments seem to reference a crosstalk "problem", but in my experience this is being heavily overstated. I've not used the HD33 so cannot compare to that - however, I've taken photos of the tests showing it to match or have a slight edge on my old pro350w (hd66 equivelant), and those things had a **TON** of happy owners. Both are vastly superior to what you'd see in a commercial theater.

By Jamie: I just picked one of these up at best buy. I am not a professional reviewer, but I think the picture looks great. 3d is very bright compared to my acer in 3d...2d has nice blacks...almost as good as my old HC3800...and I have noticed no crosstalk...if it is there my eyes just are not seeing it. With that said, I wonder if you got a bad model because I am just not seeing anyone else report this huge crosstalk problem




***

Users who have an Epson 3010 / 6000 / 5900

xhonzi
:
RE: Games.
I played through Tron Evoltuion (PS3, Framepacked 720p@60hz), an hour or two of Gears of War 3 (360, SBS 1080p@60hz) and an hour or so of Arkham City (360, Framepacked 720p@60hz). First I have to say that I thought the 360 couldn't do framepacked. Plainly it can. I've also heard the consistent opinion that SBS 1080p@60hz would look better than Framepacked 720p@60hz. This hasn't been my experience at all, but it could be the source material. Both Tron and Batman looked much better than Gears. Gears still looked good, but it had a lot of jaggies and the text was obviously half horizontal resolution. Gears also uses the "reprojection" method instead of a true second camera and the 3D, while still good, didn't look as good to my eyes.

I said this more or less before, but it's worth repeating- My 3010 didn't detect the SBS for Gears, but it obviously detected the framepacking for bothBatman and Tron.

All three games had good depth, with maybe a slight edge to Batman. It was also disappointing that Tron's cutscenes were in 2D only.

Hopefully xbox gets an update soon that makes the OS a little more 3D friendly. When wathcing SBS videos through it, the menu or other information appear across the bottom of both sides, so each eyes sees half the menu. When in framepacking mode, the friends list and other things look split top and bottom. You have to shut one eye to keep from going MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

RE: lag. The driving scenes in Tron were punishingly difficult due to the input lag, but the combat was largely unaffected. Sniping in Gears was a lot harder, but everything else seemed okay. There wasn't anytime in Batman that I was aware of the lag. It's sad because this projector is so close to being awesome.

RE: Ghosting. The longer I've had this PJ, the more aware of ghosting I've been. I don't know for sure though that it's not the glasses to some degree. I've had a really hard time keeping them clean and even after wiping them (one side at a time, or so I've been told) it seems that certain parts of the glasses are more susceptible to ghosting than others. It's not a deal breaker the way the lag is for me, but it's something I'd look to improve if possible.

RE: Fan and iris noise
Since my long review, I've listened more for fan or iris noise. I have now heard the iris, but only when there is no sound whatever. The start of a trailer for example. This doesn't really bother me, but it's there. The fan: I'd have to say it's still louder than I'd like. I thought 8 years of projector tech would have brought the noise down lower, but I'd still say it's lower than either my old Panny AE500 or the HD33.
Looks like there are old and newer improved models of the Epson 3010 in circulation!
falafala: I got a replacement for my 3010 as the earlier one had 3 problems all of which seem to be much much better
 The new one has:
  1) better pixel convergence when viewed up close
 2) IRIS is not audible anymore, except when signal switches...even then its barely audible just like Art said (Yeah!!!!!)
 3) the faint ghosting in 3D is pretty much non-existent....to my "trained eyes" i could occasionally see very very little of it....but practically non existent



dagameballa: ..the one with the dual 580 sli setup..just wanted to give my view on things! we spent a few nights together with the 3010..my first impression was like his..WOW this thing is rediculously bright..even in 3d! i have a 73 inch mitsu 2010 dlp..and it blew my tv away in every aspect..except for maybe black levels..the 3d was way brighter..the pic was cleaner and sharper..there was zero crosstalk in everything we threw at it..ZERO..we played killzone 3 in 3d...cars 2 in 3d..crysis 2 in 3d..zero crosstalk all around..colors had more pop than my dlp..the whites were better..
I have to say although the black levels are not great they were more than acceptable, the tires on the cars and shadows on cars 2 were so dark sometimes I couldnt see them, they were better in 3d than 2d..now onto the lag.. I dont consider myself a "hardcore gamer" however I do consider myself a hair under that.I play through all the big titles. the lag is there..however i definately do not think at all it would bother most people..
I was picking off running players in crysis 2 with the sniper gun with no problems at all..it did take me a few minutes to adjust..but once I did it all felt natural..I honestly believe had I not heard or read about the lag issue. I would have probably never noticed it. I also wanna add that the lag is only there in 1080p 3d.. in 2d no issues at all..we did not test 720@60..only 1080p@59..60 wouldnt work..but 1080p@50 and @24hz it worked fine! at 24hz the game still ran at more than 60fps.but there was definate motion blur..the game was running fast..but when you would turn the screen would get blur.
I'm not the hardcore home theatre enthusiast my cousin is..hes really into the black levels and perfect color..we did not do a calibration on the 3010 like his mitsu hc3800 is meter calibrated..we just used a disc. to my average user or first projector eye..I can not see anything touching this thing for the $1440 he paid for it. we live in oregon so no tax for us..hehe. the blacks are ok in 2d,,great in 3d..the projector was silent..I sat right next to it all night long..literally like 2 feet..and i could barely every now and then hear the iris kick in..only in the high mode..no fan noise..the colors are great and the pic we were able to get plenty sharp..so being this is probably gonna be more of a real everyday users perspective other than his hardcore home theatre enthusiast..this thing blows away my tv in everything but black level..there is no comparison. If theres any questions please ask and I will try to give my honest opinion..I am not biased in any way..my cousin is a lil dlp biased..and he will admit that..lol just ask..but his version seems fair! dgm

R. Slaughter:
I've had my epson 3010 for a few weeks now, and I believe I've reached the point where I'm familiar enough to put together a good opinion with a few backing facts.

First, this thing is **BRIGHT**. As in, lights all the way up in the room, still plenty bright BRIGHT. I'm coming from another projector that's rated at 2800 lumens (optoma pro350w), and this thing blows it out of the water for brightness!

For image quality - I'm not a trained critic, but it does look exceptionally good to my untrained eye. It beats my old projector in just about every way, but given that the old one is quite a but further down the entry level pricing scale, that definitely should be the case.

What I can talk about is 3d. The old projector is a pro350w, and the common knowledge is that DLP is the way to go for low crosstalk 3d. And I've got to say, I've definitely never had a complaint in that department with the pro350w - But I've also got to say that if the Epson isn't matching it, the difference is low enough that I can't distinguish it. Basically, with either projector I can see very minimal crosstalk in black-on-white test screens, but I've never been able to see any hint of crosstalk in any movie I've viewed. And keep in mind, this is with a *MUCH* brighter picture, so any white imagery being "crosstalked" should be similarly more visible, but in my experience it's simply not an issue.

For glasses, I've now found several options that work with this projector. Obviously the Epson glasses are one option, but they're apparently not readily available to purchase yet. Fortunately, the IR protocol follows the m-3di standard, so any glasses following that standard will work fine. There are apparently several glasses planned to follow that protocol, but the downside is only one is yet in production and even that one is very limited - the 3rd gen panasonic viera glasses. And being new, they're a bit hard to find as well. I did find a vendor with them in stock and was able to get a pair to try. I can confirm they are compatible. I found them slightly more comfortable than the stock epsons due to their light weight. However, with any active glasses, looking through them at an angle will reduce their effectiveness; the Optoma stock glasses seemed less succeptible to this than the panasonics, but it's not enough of a difference in either case to matter to me - I just grab whichever of my glasses are easiest within reach : As a note, I was also able to get the Monster Vision RF glasses (the kit with the detector and emitter packaged) using the Monster Vision's IR sensor. Also note - this projector apparently emits a HUGE amount of infared light. I could not, under any circumstances, make the glasses lose sync. Simply couldn't do it. That's the good news, but there's a down side there...

Which brings us to a few points of bad news.
-The IR output from 3d apparently interferes with remote functionality big-time. I didn't realize that myself, as I use an RF (URC RF20) with ir emitters stuck on the fronts of all my equipment. It wasn't impacted at all. But after hearing some other users mention that issue I tested, and yes, EVERYTHING started having trouble picking up infared remote signals when 3d was on. Obviously an easy solution there is the one I was using anyway; a remote with RF like the RF20 + RF expander or one of the logitechs that has RF (personally don't like logitech, but that's another review :
-The iris is a bit noisy. In my case the projector is in its own chamber, so I really don't hear it most times, but with the cover off it is audible enough that it might be annoying to many people, so I thought it worth mentioning.
-And this one might be a dealbreaker for some: LAG. Serious lag. If you're watching non-interactive video, this won't matter to you one teeny bit. But if you're gaming, it can be anywhere between a mild annoyance and completely unplayable. I measured it at its best 60ms slower than my supposedly <5ms LCD monitor, so total would theoretically be between 60-65 ms of lag. Nothing I could do would improve the number. I contacted Epson's support and was told that's functioning as designed. So in theory it's possible that if Epson realizes how many people are turned off by gaming lag, maybe they'll update the firmware to give a gaming mode with minimal processing, but it sounds not likely.
Let's quantify that a little more, though. 60ms, what does that mean? Here's a few games I've played with it and the impact it had on those games:
-Batman Arkham City: Played through the entire game, got all the riddler trophies and riddles, etc. not 100%, but most of the main stuff). Very seldom did lag impact me. On occasion I'd feel like I hit the counter button but it didn't count it, but generally not an issue at all.
-Gran Turismo 5: Never noticed the lag at all.
-Left 4 Dead 2: I could definitely tell at first, but after about 30 minutes I guess my brain re-learned how much to anticipate shots, and it felt fine again. I've played it probably 5 hours or so since then and haven't had an issue.
-Killing Floor: Very similar story to left 4 dead 2- seemed to be an issue for a bit, then it got better.
-Enemy Territory: This was an issue. Reaction times were significantly handicapped, and while that often won't matter when it's just you vs the PC, other players are quick to take advantage of it.
So in short, if you're pitting your reaction times against other players, it's definitely an issue. Also, games requiring quick reaction times are an issue (I keep hearing people talk about wipeout as an example). But there are other games where the problems are less pronounced, and how much of an issue it is really comes down to what you play and at what level.


jaxter
: Well finally got round to doing some testing of the tw6000 tonight using basically out the box settings 2D picture is lovely and sharp and im more then happy with it when watching mkv or Blu ray through my htpc.Also sky hd is excellent on this PJ
 For all the talk of lag on AVSforums i have found it a non issue for me played some god of war chains of olympus on PS3 in 3D tonight and some pro evolution soccer 2012 on xbox 360 and was more then happy i was half expecting to press a button and the action to take place on screen a second later but no it felt no different to playing on my Samsung led tv.
 Now im no expert but this is my 5th 3D display device so i am experienced in this matter and i have to say tonight i watched about 20 mins each of cars 2, Alice In Wonderland and Imax Deep Sea,and i definitely seen crosstalk but it was minimal and i was looking for it like a hawk!!
 It was always the usual suspects when crosstalk occured dark image against a high contrast background. Now the picture in 3D mode is as bright and vivid as ive seen, this more then offsets the minimal ghosting for me personally...
simontodd: I couldn't be any happier. For all the tech talk I've seen, 60ms lag this, and cross-talk that, I can't find any issues at all. Avatar was breathtaking, and IMAX films were without issue. As you will see from my signature link, I do not have a dedicated bat cave and this is the first time I have all the brightness I need.  For my situation, 10 out of 10
ian.c: INPUT LAG:... yes it's there. But not as bad as I anticipated. It certainly does not feel like 60ms. Just real quick I tested out Battlefield 3 multiplayer, Geometry Wars, and The Impossible game. 3 games where you need good reflexes/timing to stay alive. Geometry Wars I did quite well on, lag was not bad. Not quite as good as my LCD tv, but not distracting either. Battlefield isn't really a good test probably, since it's a sluggish game anyways with a terrible framerate. But, from my subjective standpoint, the lag is there, but not distracting, and not as bad as many TVs.
DCunited: Nice Detailed 3d picture and no lag or crosstalk there.
jmalto:The only 3D material I have watched was Monsters vs. Aliens the bridge scene and towards the end when there is a lot of motion to see if it produced artifacts. The good news I saw no ghosting at all on the bridge scene and there were no noticeable artifacts on any of the other scenes. Still too early to say if the unit does or doesn't have 3D issues but I haven't seen any yet so that is a good sign.
... after 4 more hours 3D watching there is still no sign of ghosting..
sprocket360:"I had a few people over last night that were very impressed with the 3d quality. I specifically asked that everyone study the image for any type of crosstalk. No one could spot anything. They did say that in both 2d and 3d the image had a lots of depth and looked like the image was going to pop off the screen.
defiancecp shows the non visible crosstalk








projectorreviews has some first impressions of the Epson Home Cinema 3010
Trusted Review Epson 3D projectors first look
cine4home.de Mega Beta Test:  Epson EH-TW9000(W) Light Power Edition
Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector - A First Look Review
Epson Pro Cinema 6010 Projector - A First Look Review

avsforum.com: New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 thread
hifi-forum.de: Neue Epson 3D Beamer EH-TW 5900/6000/9000 IFA 2011 thread

3D Vision Blog a normal user's look into the world of 3D Stereo Technologies
3D Movie list and much more to compare 3D things

3D TV Display Technology Shoot-Out

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